Transcript of Episode 43: FARRAH PENN, ya AUTHOR

00:01.95 goodstory (Mary Kole)

Thank you for joining us here at the Good Story Podcast. I am Mary Kole, and with me I have a young adult author, Farrah Penn. How are you doing today?

00:11.66 Farrah Penn

I’m great. I’m honored to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

00:15.11 goodstory

My pleasure. Why don’t you tell the good people a little bit about yourself?

00:19.41 Farrah

Yeah. So my name is Farrah. I grew up in North Texas and have just loved reading and writing for what feels like my whole entire life and I knew at one point I would love to pursue publishing a book and that didn’t happen. I started taking myself more seriously after college. I studied creative writing in college and English and I feel like all of that was just kind of helping and building my way towards a writing career and shortly after college, I wrote a young adult novel and found a literary agent and, yeah, that’s— I feel like that’s the condensed version of how I got here.

01:13.47 goodstory

You make it sound so easy peasy lemon squeezy.

01:14.48 Farrah

It really wasn’t, there is a long—

01:20.51 goodstory

The good people aren’t here for easy peasy lemon squeezy. We want a little suffering with our publishing stories.

01:27.06 Farrah

Wouldn’t it be great if everyone just had just the easiest time and everyone got six-figure book deals and it was all easy and great?

01:36.94 goodstory

Publishing is not the field for you if you want the six-figure book deals, the financial security, never having to deal with deadlines, unfortunately. No, I don’t want to, you know, make your story shadowy and fraught if it wasn’t. But yeah, how long do you think it took you overall to get to that next step?

02:04.88 Farrah

Yeah, so I think the longer version of my publishing story was in 2011, after college, I was like, you know, I loved the young adult space. I was loving reading young adult books and also adult books as well. But I knew like for me, I wanted to write a young adult book. This book in particular was a young adult dystopian book. It was the era of like Hunger Games and Divergent.

02:30.19 goodstory

Oh, yeah. It was like the hot time for all of those. And so you kind of came to the field reading YA because I was going to ask, of course, why young adult?

02:42.71 Farrah

Yeah, I grew up reading it. I grew up reading, you know, like in my era, it was like Sarah Dessen and Meg Cabot. Definitely not as like wide and diverse as it is now. It’s so great to see how much it’s grown, but those were like two authors in particular I was reading when I was a young adult. So yeah, I think that’s, I knew I was like, I love this space and like just the coming of age of it all. And that’s kind of the genre where I landed.

03:16.39 goodstory

So you were saying it was the heyday of Hunger Games, Divergent, all of these kind of blockbuster, kind of dystopian books.

03:25.48 Farrah

Yes, and so I had written, I thought it felt very like commercial and high stakes and I think my literary agent like would agree that’s the book she signed me with. And I do feel like that part happened, um like pretty fast I think like within six months, maybe.

03:44.78 goodstory

Oh, wow.

03:45.70 Farrah

Which yeah at that time, it did it feel fast for me. The other side of it is that for this publishing journey, this is not my debut. If you Google me, you will not find that book because it didn’t sell. So when that book was on submission, a piece of writing advice, like a lot of authors will give is work on your next project. And so that’s what I was doing. I was writing another young adult book. This one was more of like the mystery thriller genre. And um when the dystopian young adult book didn’t sell, a while later we went out with the mystery book, which also it didn’t sell as well.

And I feel like shortly after that, there was a pitch opportunity for, I think, if this was a while ago, so let me try and remember, I think it was like a certain editor looking for young adult romance or contemporary. And so I had written some sample chapters and a pitch for that. And that also didn’t sell. So I think at that point, I was like, man, and am I going to ever do this? What am I doing wrong?

05:02.95 goodstory

Yeah!

05:04.21 Farrah

Is it me? And I think you know as I’ve gotten older and just sort of like reflected back on that time, it really is like a mix of things. You know, an editor has to connect with it. And not only an editor has to connect, but then they got to take it to like the big bosses and the publishing company and it’s just like there’s so many things that have to align in order for a book to sell and, you know, it just wasn’t my time, but I kept going. And so the short of this whole part of my saga is the next book I wrote was a contemporary novel, a young adult novel called Twelve Steps to Normal. And that book would end up becoming my debut to my surprise, because it was like the least commercial book I had written at that point. Barking

05:56.68 goodstory

Yeah. Hi, doggy. We are a dog friendly. My kids have like come in when I’ve been doing webinars and like I categorically tell them, I’m like, when I’m doing something, you don’t but they come in, they cheese, they don’t understand why like people can’t talk back. Anyway, so no worries at all.

Did your agent stick by you? I mean, was that kind of an anxiety of yours of like, hey, you know, am I ever going to sell? And is this person a champion for me?

06:36.66 Farrah

Yeah, she has been a champion, and she has stuck by me and was very supportive of like you know the next ideas. Even with Twelve Steps, I was again, I am still surprised because this debut came out for me in 2018, so it sold in 2016. And it is, I feel like, a coming of age, like, quieter contemporary story. And so she, you know, was still game to find the right editors for it and did find one who was passionate about it, and which was great because love her dearly. I think she’s great. And so yeah, it worked out. It didn’t go exactly the way I thought it would in my mind, or the way I maybe like hoped or wished it would. But yeah, I guess the advice I got give to writers is just keep going, just work on the next thing because you never know what will happen.

07:51.40 goodstory

Well, let’s talk about that a little bit. So it seems like your first entry into the game was more trend forward. You called it high stakes. It was very commercial at the time because it was in that hot dystopian market that was raging around 2011. That didn’t go. And then you tried another kind of genre project with a mystery thriller suspense idea. Then you tried contemporary realistic and that on proposal kind of didn’t work out either. You finally found success in your true debut with something that you’re saying, oh, it wasn’t as commercial. It was a little quieter. I’m surprised that it played out this way. Why do you think that is? And is that maybe a blessing in disguise? Do you have kind of more of a genre sensibility about you as a writer? Or are you happier that you found a home in contemporary realistic?

08:54.88 Farrah

Um… I mean, I will say to that, I am glad I debuted in the contemporary space. And like when I reflect on it and look back, I’m like, oh, this makes sense because I was reading so much like contemporary.

09:09.50 goodstory

Well, I was going to say Sarah Dessen, that contemporary romance, very much grounded in our world, like small towns hanging out on the dock. It’s been a long time since I’ve read Sarah Dessen.

09:20.53 Farrah

Yeah. I think you nailed it. But I mean, I do enjoy genre. I love writing just so many different things. And I know that it’s smart. And a lot of times people want to like kind of brand you into one specific genre. But I enjoy like the challenge and just like the joy of writing, trying different things. But yeah, the two books that I have out now are both contemporary young adult. And that is also a space I enjoy writing in and like you know would hope to continue enjoy writing in.

10:03.45 goodstory

So I think a lot of writers, when they’re at that place where you were in 2011, 2015, whatever, they try to be commercial. And they may not know what that means, they may not—they have ideas about the market. So you were looking at the market. You took your swing at commercial. What does the process in your head look like for creating a story when you’re like, Oh man, I’m going to make this as commercial as possible. And maybe some of your other ideas that are quieter, like do you, do you have a different approach?

10:43.75 Farrah

You know I don’t know if I think I was doing it consciously when I was writing those first two books.

10:48.33 goodstory

Hmm.

10:50.57 Farrah

I think it was just like, here’s the idea. It came to me and it just like happened to be like a more commercial idea. I would say like if you ask me now as a writer, I do think I’m a little bit more intentional with it. If I have an idea for a story, I’m like okay like what’s the genre? What are the stakes, what are the turning points? You know, all the story beats kind of like thinking about it a little bit more critically than I was in my earlier stages of the career.

11:21.09 goodstory

So how do you approach a story idea? I’m not asking where you get your ideas because I think that a lot of people think that’s an asinine question and because it’s like, I don’t know. You know, they just, they come sometimes. But it does sound like you are more, you said intentional, you plan a little bit more. Are you an outliner? Like how do you approach? So you have a nugget, right? You have a nugget in your hands and what, what does Farrah do next?

11:50.69 Farrah

Yeah. How do I approach story? Great question. I would say now as a writer, I feel like in the earlier stages, I think I was more of a pantser, like here’s the nugget and I’m just going to run with it and see like where it goes. And that was, I think a little bit harder approach because I, you know, yeah I would get stuck at a certain point. And I think now I at least try and use, you know, like Save the Cat. Just reading, ah you know, reading a little bit more craft books than I was in the earlier stages in my career. And also I started doing screenwriting like four years ago and that really helped me focus on like the structure and plot of it all and like, kind of nail the beats.

So if I’m approaching a story now, I’ll at least have like, a one sentence plot that I hope will happen within like the beat sheet of a story and I’ll use that as a my guide to writing the book and I think in all the cases where I’ve done this, I’ll kind of have like this rough guide and I’ll know where the story is going, like I’ll know where it’s supposed to end. I’ll know where the middle is. And I know like what’s going to happen, but sometimes things take me by surprise or I’ll have like a character whose motivation changes or little things that happen in the story that take me by surprise that will kind of change the story a little bit from like what the original outline was.

13:44.58 goodstory

So you, by structuring your work now and taking more of an organized approach, you mentioned Save the Cat. Do you use Save the Cat, the Blake Snyder original or the Save the Cat Writes a Novel, the Jessica Brody adaptation?

14:01.93 Farrah

I’ve read both. I’m trying to think of what I did for this last book. I think it was the like Snyder approach.

14:13.31 goodstory

The OG.

14:14.84 Farrah

Yeah, and it was just, I forget where I found it. It must have been somewhere online. It was like a beat sheet that you could fill in yourself. And I was like, okay, here are the things that I know will happen or like should happen or I should be hitting these things.

14:28.37 goodstory

And so it’s like the bumpers at the bowling alley. You try to hue pretty close to what you planned, even though, of course, you know, dialogue, individual scene, beat-to-beat moments are going to be, you know, fairly changeable as characters, you start to get to know your characters, you start to sort of massage those relationships. But you really like to plan. And once you have the plan, you stick to it?

14:58.20 Farrah

Yeah, I think for the most part. I think it helps having that plan or that guide just so I don’t reach the middle of the book and then I’m like, and then what happens? Let me think about it forever and take a really long time finishing. But if I like take maybe a little bit of a longer time in the beginning stages thinking about things, then at least I’m like, OK, I know where this train is supposed to go.

15:24.10 goodstory

I had a client say one time that um when you outline, the thinking is already done and I have just clung to that for the longest time. I do think that there are different skills, right? You have the big structural thinking and it sounds like you’ve been really putting a premium on learning that, reading more guidebooks, doing some screenwriting to really internalize structure. But I love this idea of like, okay, the big picture thinking is done, I can do scene thinking, I can do character thinking, I can do dialogue thinking, description, setting thinking, all of that, and kind of the sentence level thinking, as you’re composing, but the pieces are in place.

16:07.65 Farrah

Yeah. Oh, I do love that a lot. Yeah. The thinking is already done. So you don’t have to go back to that thinking stage as you’re writing it. Yeah.

16:17.50 goodstory

How do you power through that muddy middle? So structure, obviously, is your guide. What do you put in the structure of a middle to really kind of buttress that story? What do you think is important to hit in that long stretch?

16:35.11 Farrah

Yeah, um this is a great question because I still, I think even at this stage, struggle a little bit with middles because you got to make sure you know your character’s journey and the stakes of what they’re going through, the internal and the external, that you’re still hitting, that that journey is still clear. And you’re also kind of throwing maybe some like curveballs at them. I think um maybe for me, I would say, I don’t make it easy for them, like always throw something to make it a little bit interesting because yeah, if it’s too easy and the problems are too easy to solve, then everything the resolution kind of feels like it’s happening maybe a little bit too early.

17:20.83 goodstory

And when you throw curveballs, subplots, I think you have a romantic subplot in the book that was released. We should probably give the titles of your book. So Twelve Steps to Normal, right?

17:34.73 Farrah

Yes. And then the book that came out this year, 2024, in March is called Cancelled. Both are contemporary young adult books.

17:45.89 goodstory

Yeah, so if you are planning a subplot or you are throwing a romance plot in there, um how do you pick? You know, because it can’t be too far left field out of complete nowhere, these curveballs. How do you select a juicy sort of component of the story to kind of put into the mix?

18:09.24 Farrah

Ooh, how do I select the juicy components? I think it, I guess I can speak to Cancelled because that’s my most recent book. In the opening chapter, it opens with like a teenage girl who’s realized, essentially, she’s been canceled, but it’s for this thing that she didn’t do. She’s been falsely framed for this like video that’s gotten leaked around her school. And so I thought, OK, who is the type of character who is equipped, I guess, to take on this journey and like what would her journey look like? And then sort of like looking at if I give this plot problem to this character, like what is she like? What type of person is she? What are her friends like, what is her romantic life like and her family life like? And I think that all you know is part of the contemporary genre anyway, um you know grounded in reality and also high school because you have your family and your friends and they’re all part of your life at that stage.

And so yeah, I think character is really important and just kind of looking at like, what type of person is she? For this character, she was very much like a fix it girly. She was like, I can solve all my problems. And, um, I was like, okay, well, if she’s, you know, then what is like the internal problem? And, you know, part of that was like, does she you know have trouble reaching out for help? And um so yeah I guess all that to say is like really taking a look at like who your character is, getting to know them like one of your friends, and taking and figuring out like why they are the ones to go on this journey and how they will handle all the problems that you’re about to throw at them as an author.

20:06.72 goodstory

I love that. So you shape the plot. It’s like why this character for this story, right? Did she come into your head clearly with this concept for Cancelled or was it the scenario and you kind of built a character for the scenario?

20:25.82 Farrah

I think it was a little bit of both because I had this opening chapter where this character you know shows up to this Halloween party in a banana costume. And I was like, who is this character?

20:36.24 goodstory

Love that.

20:37.85 Farrah

Because that could not be me in high school. That was absolutely not me. But I just kind of loved, OK, then she’s probably confident, maybe like a little bit sure of herself, and you know what happens when that confidence is kind of like thrown, and how does she handle it? So that was one portion of like that popped into my head. And then the other portion was more of the plot. Like, what if, you know, you know, she wasn’t this, it was incorrect? Like the, the video that is getting blamed on her is like incorrect. And, and then how do you go about fixing that issue? So, for that book is particularly, it was, I would say just a little bit of both.

21:20.93 goodstory

That’s great. I want to talk about stakes. Here, it seems like obviously for any teen, reputation is huge. Their social lives, kind of the esteem of their family, even though they don’t want to admit that they care, you know. So how did you raise the stakes and also kind of challenge her, how did she maintain agency as a character? Because this is something like when something so big and so external happens and esteem is sort of in the eye of the beholder. So a lot of other characters hold the keys to whether she has her reputation or not, was it a challenge to make her still empowered as a protagonist and proactive as a protagonist when all of this was kind of happening to her?

22:18.79 Farrah

Yeah, I think so. And because I was aware like that the things that were happening to her, I wanted her to kind of go about it and like, be proactive, but also make mistakes along the way. Because you know, just as humans, we are not perfect. And also, me in high school and just think you know when you’re young like you’re also like making mistakes and like that’s okay because that’s how we learn. That was like one thing that was on my mind because you know that I was like this this book isn’t like a life-or-death situation. It is you know, it’s grounded in reality and it’s high school but also it’s like high school can be feel so insular that it can feel so much bigger um and the stakes I think can feel like higher, especially if your reputation is questioned and you know people are mad at you and you’re still trying to like get into college and deal with all these other things. I forget what the question was.

23:20.57 goodstory

I forget what the question was too, but there are so many good things to pick out of your response. There’s sort of the perceived stakes, but I think that is where your young adult characters live. Everything feels a little heightened. And do you have any challenges kind of tapping into that mindset? How do you thread the needle between this feels very real, this feels high stakes and maybe melodrama because it could easily veer into that territory.

23:54.72 Farrah

Yeah, wait, this is actually so funny that you asked me about melodrama because I spoke to a friend of mine as a teacher, and she has some high school interns over the summer that she’s mentoring. And I talked to them over Zoom yesterday. And a question was like, how do yeah how do you make it dramatic without being melodramatic? And I was like, this is a great question. I have to like think about this for a second. ah

24:19.10 goodstory

I’m so glad we’re getting version 2.0 now that you’ve had some time to marinate with it.

24:24.43 Farrah

Yeah. Um, I can only speak from like my personal experience writing and as a writer, but, um, I was like, how do I tap into things that can heighten the drama, but it doesn’t feel cheesy or it doesn’t feel corny and it doesn’t feel inauthentic? And I think I was just going back to what, yeah, like what feels authentic from my main character and like how would she go about this in an authentic way while still, you know, throwing some problems at her and like having her create some problems too, because again, you know, humans aren’t perfect. So I think I don’t have like the one golden answer to this, but if something is not hitting authentic for you, for your story, if it feels like a little corny or cheesy, I think like really listen, maybe listen to that gut feeling would be my advice.

25:20.85 goodstory

Do you feel pressure kind of in that vein writing YA and sort of passing that authenticity sniff test with a younger audience?

25:33.50 Farrah

Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I would say I feel pressure as you know, a 30 something writer writing—

25:41.49 goodstory

Not to give you a complex. I feel like your face was just like, oh, do I have to start thinking about that?

25:51.44 Farrah

I mean, yeah, I think you hope that you’re doing a good job and tapping into the right things and the right themes.